B-Body.org

theholycow · Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 10:51 am Post subject:

I forgot how deep it is and how shallow the inside-measuring jaws of my digital caliper are. D'oh!

In other news, my bellhousing came in. I still haven't heard from the other seller about my flywheel.

I need to find appropriate bolts for the bellhousing.
_________________
1980 Buick LeSabre Limited 4.1 V6 TH350, 38,000 miles, family heirloom. Plan: Convert to manual transmission.

Deathdeelr · Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 5:23 pm Post subject:

Do it right and get some grade 8 hardware. I use bolts and lockwashers along with some red lock tight when doing a trans install or motor swap. It's really a worry factor and I usually go overboard on these things so I never have to worry about them again.

Some no no's are green or blue locktite and anything under a grade 5 bolt or stainless bolts. The green locktite is permanent and will pull the threads out of aluminum. The blue locktite is BS. I don't use it at all. You could use grade 5 bolts for this application with no issues but beware of the cheap low grade non-hardened bolts. You can snap them with a good 3/8" ratchet just trying to torque them down and they will definitely shear off under a high torque load like from the engine to the bellhousing.
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theholycow · Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 5:55 am Post subject:

I was indeed planning to get grade 8 bolts. I don't have a thread pitch gauge...any suggestions?

I actually haven't tried the bolts from the old bellhousing; they may be correct. I have to do that before I worry too much about getting bolts.

Edit: Looks like they're correct. The one I tried won't thread in fully but I think I just need to wirebrush the bolts and the holes. I think a small dremel wirebrush will fit in the hole. Otherwise, I'll have to buy a tap to chase it.
_________________
1980 Buick LeSabre Limited 4.1 V6 TH350, 38,000 miles, family heirloom. Plan: Convert to manual transmission.

Deathdeelr · Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 7:16 am Post subject:

They used to sell thread chasers that are designed for exactly what you're doing and don't damage the hole if you thread it in wrong. If you cock a tap the wrong way and put too much force on it you end up retapping the hole and damaging the existing threads. I don't remember where I got my chaser set; it's a Hanson but I looked on their site and they don't offer it any more. Just be real carefull with the tap and use lots of CRC or WD40 to clean the dirt out of the bolt holes. As for the bolts, a wire brush is fine.
_________________
Me hid big dings wid da hamma.
ASE Certified Master Tech
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/3311846

theholycow · Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 1:37 pm Post subject:

Yeah, I've been wirebrushing a lot of bolts. I have a wirebrush mounted on my bench grinder and I hold the bolt with a vise-grip. The bolts in the transmission case, for example, went in a lot smoother after wirebrushing the crud out of them. Also, my fingers don't get greasy handling them anymore.

I realized that the tap might be a bad idea after posting that and found a better idea. If you can't find a decently priced thread chaser, you can make one out of a bolt by notching the threads. Seems like it would work, but I don't think I'll need it.

Anyway, good news! I had a very lucky day shopping today.
1. Bolts - 1/2"-13 is the correct diameter and thread. Unlike the old bolts, which may be dirty/damaged/metric, these threaded right in. I bought extra-long ones hoping I can use a nut also, as I don't love how these threads look. For people googling this thread:
The 9785581 manual BOP bellhousing connects to the transmission with 1/2"-13 bolts.

2. Pilot - Advance Auto had one that matches my ham-handed measurements within less than .01 inch. Score! Attention googlers:
If this works, the right pilot bushing for a non-world-class GM T-5 behind a Buick V6 (3.8, 231, 4.1, 252) is a Clutch-In! 14650, UPC 037495146500.

3. I wanted to wirebrush the bellhousing's bolt hole threads. I bought wirebrushes meant for cleaning gun barrels for $2/each at Walmart and they should be perfect. Similar wirebrushes in tool departments at various stores were $5 and too fat.
_________________
1980 Buick LeSabre Limited 4.1 V6 TH350, 38,000 miles, family heirloom. Plan: Convert to manual transmission.

theholycow · Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 2:23 pm Post subject:

So, it seems I've had a serious planning failure.

The only pressure plate that will fit my flywheel is for a 10.4 inch clutch, and the only 10.4 inch clutch that will fit my input shaft is a kinda expensive custom unit for Flathead Ford folks. As well, the pressure plate that matches it (if I buy a matching set) is no bargain. I may have to just blow the $250 on both.

Otherwise there's an 11 inch clutch or a 9 inch.

Can a clutch be used that's smaller than the pressure plate?
How about the 11 inch?

Can a flywheel be redrilled for a different pressure plate? Then I could just get an entire inexpensive S10 clutch kit.

Edit (a few hours later): http://qytum.com/tech/v6t5.htm says that a smaller clutch disc can be used with a larger pressure plate.
_________________
1980 Buick LeSabre Limited 4.1 V6 TH350, 38,000 miles, family heirloom. Plan: Convert to manual transmission.

Deathdeelr · Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 4:53 pm Post subject:

There's no problem running the 9" clutch with the 10.4" pp so long as it fits a few guidlines. Make sure the clutch you use is the same thickness as the clutch the pressure plate is designed for. If it's too thin it will slip and if it's too thick the pp wont release. The inner diameter of the friction surface of the clutch must match the inner diameter of the contact surface of the pp. If it's too small it will wear a ridge in the clutch and eventually bind and break apart. If it's too big the dampening springs may catch on the pp and bind or break apart. Either way you may be looking at catastrophic clutch failure. Forget the 11" clutch as it will interfere with the pp chassis.

I did have to do this on my Camaro years ago as I found out the hard way the input shaft on the T5 differed from the V6 to the V8. I ran the smaller V6 clutch plate with the larger V8 pp for quite a while before I swapped the trans with an M21 and was able to run a matched set.

You can drill the flywheel for the S10 clutch. You need to make a template, mark the holes and measure 10 times to be sure every hole is the same distance from the centerline of the flywheel. Then it's just a matter of drilling and tapping the holes. There's zero room for error so if you're not an experienced machinist, I don't suggest you try it.
_________________
Me hid big dings wid da hamma.
ASE Certified Master Tech
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/3311846

Deathdeelr · Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 4:57 pm Post subject:

I just noticed the link at the bottom of your post. Funny that's just what I was talking about.
_________________
Me hid big dings wid da hamma.
ASE Certified Master Tech
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/3311846

theholycow · Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 4:28 am Post subject:

Awesome info! V6 disc and V8 PP here I come! Very Happy

I've come to realize that the disc I took out of the S10 might be almost new. Any suggestions where I can find thickness specs? I may be able to just use it.

I am not confident enough in my machining ability to drill the flywheel myself. If I went that route I'd have a machine shop do it.

More than accuracy, I worry that ham-handed drilling could weaken the flywheel and it could come apart on that one day that I reach 4000RPM. I won't be installing a scattershield and do not want flywheel in my feet.
_________________
1980 Buick LeSabre Limited 4.1 V6 TH350, 38,000 miles, family heirloom. Plan: Convert to manual transmission.

theholycow · Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 6:15 pm Post subject:

I splurged $70 at NAPA on a 1983 S10 2.8 clutch disc (Part number RCF4201) which is 9 11/16 diameter. If I had planned ahead I could have gotten a whole kit with that disc from Fort Wayne Clutch on eBay for $8 less (and then sold the pressure plate).

The pressure plate will be ordered from Auto Zone. Can't beat the price...$27 for part number CA1853.

Who knows anything about forks? It sounds like most older GM clutch forks are interchangeable. I'm hoping to find one locally.

Edit: Keep in mind that I'm going to be fabricating the slave end anyway, so I'll be able to make minor adjustments.
_________________
1980 Buick LeSabre Limited 4.1 V6 TH350, 38,000 miles, family heirloom. Plan: Convert to manual transmission.

theholycow · Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 5:43 pm Post subject:

Found a fork.

FYI:
Flywheel -> crankshaft bolts: 7/16-20 x 1 inch.
Pressure plate -> flywheel bolts: 3/8-16 x 1 inch (or maybe 3/4).
I bought grade 8.

Question about both sets of bolts: Should I have anything on them like split lock washers, or just the plain bolt? The flexplate->crank bolts had nothing and I don't remember about the S10's pressure plate.

How much torque should each set of bolts get?
Edit: http://crazy4cars.net/showthread.php?t=1937 says 55-65 ft. lbs. for flywheel-to-crank bolts.
_________________
1980 Buick LeSabre Limited 4.1 V6 TH350, 38,000 miles, family heirloom. Plan: Convert to manual transmission.

Deathdeelr · Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 9:19 pm Post subject:

The fork MUST be for the same application as the bell. Watch out for people who blindly say they're interchangeable.
_________________
Me hid big dings wid da hamma.
ASE Certified Master Tech
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/3311846

theholycow · Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 4:34 am Post subject:

I think there were multiple forks used with the 9785581 bell. Anyway, I think I got the right one: 14066235

I've gotten most of what I need now. I'm waiting to hear from a guy about a fork boot, and pressure plate bolts. After a couple times test-fitting, I'll have measured for the driveshaft and release bearing and that should be everything.

Yesterday I tried to test-fit the transmission but I think the pilot was too tight. Today I'm going to try to confirm that and see if I can ream out the pilot bushing.

It fit on the bench, but I think my crankshaft might be a little to tight and therefore squeezed the bushing. That would explain why it was more difficult to drive in than people/instructions say it should be.

Oh, and I'm going to research the rod linkage that was meant for this bell and see if it has a bracket I can use when fabricating my slave cylinder mount.
_________________
1980 Buick LeSabre Limited 4.1 V6 TH350, 38,000 miles, family heirloom. Plan: Convert to manual transmission.

Deathdeelr · Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 8:19 am Post subject:

Before you go reaming the bushing make sure the trans isn't cocked when you slide it in. You also need to make sure the clutch is aligned correctly or you'll get a lot of friction going in. If the bushing fits on the bench then it should fit in the car. Bearings can get squeezed but a bushing can't unless you're driving it home with a sledgehammer. Get the bell bolted up but leave the bell to block bolts loose so the bell can slide around a little. Get some long studs or you can cut the heads off some long bolts and install two of them into the back of the bell. Use them to slide the trans into the bell. This is to be sure the trans is going in straight. Use a little grease on the splines of the input shaft to help the clutch plate move around when it is installed.

If the trans is still tight going in then try this. Leave the pilot bushing out of the crank. Get the trans bolted up even if it's a little tight. Then actuate the fork to release the clutch so the clutch plate and input shaft can relax. Release the fork to engage the clutch. Then tighten up the bell to the block. Remove the trans from the bell then remove the bell from the block. Install the pilot bushing then put everything back together. It should go in like butter.
_________________
Me hid big dings wid da hamma.
ASE Certified Master Tech
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/3311846

theholycow · Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 9:53 am Post subject:

Indeed, I found that it has to be very straight and true before the input shaft will cooperate with the pilot bushing, but I still had to ream it. I didn't use a sledgehammer but the hell I gave it with a regular hammer was about the same.

I have not tried test-fitting it with the clutch and pressure plate, so that's not the issue.

After reaming, I got the bell to 1/8" from the engine. For test-fitting I pulled it in the rest of the way with the bolts, but if it feels stuck when I pull it back I'm going to ream it more. I haven't pulled it back yet because I ran out of time yesterday...but my driveshaft is now in the shop getting shortened! Very Happy

I'm very worried that my driveshaft will come back still a little too long. Sad

I measured per their instructions so I have to accept that they're the experts.
_________________
1980 Buick LeSabre Limited 4.1 V6 TH350, 38,000 miles, family heirloom. Plan: Convert to manual transmission.